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In article <115.51.06.05.622976000@srcbs.org>, Bob Felts says...

[snip]

>> Since you have not free will, I think that this is the
>> consequence.
>>
>
>Romans 7 explains this nicely.

It does? Then why does the _interpretation_ of Rom 7 differ so sharply between
you, myself, and Gary?


--
---------------------------
Subudcat se sibi ut haereat Deo
quidquid boni habet, tribuat illi a quo factus est.
(St. Augustine, Ser. 96)

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adamst@no.spam wrote:


>>I'd say, rather, that you were _convinced_ of the truth.
>
> I think this is semantics. But, even so, does God's grace *always*
> convince the recipient of the truth? Does God offer His Grace to
> *all* men?


To your last question, God doesn't "offer" grace, He gives it.
In one sense, there is grace for all, because Jesus paid for
everyone's sins. If we have to think of grace as a substance,
then there is an infinite amount, and there is sufficient for
all men.


To the first bit, yes, it's semantics, but it's the connotations
of "forced" that make the pro-choice (heh heh) people into
pro-choice people. If we suggest that man doesn't have
free will, then all sorts of nonsense about "robots" and
"forcing" and "unaccountability" go flying. "Forcing" is
what a rapist or an evil Soviet brainwasher does.

Do I flee to the arms of free will doctrine, just because
I don't like the images conjured up by "force"?

We just don't use the word "force" in situations like:

"We forced the baby to be born."

"He was forced into breathing."

"She was forced to fall in love with him."

There is no "choosing to be born", or "choosing to breathe"
or "choosing whom to fall in love with." But we still don't
say "forced" as if the person had to be carried kicking and
screaming into birth, breath or eros.

Having said that, if you had bought into the notion that
physical existance is not real and pain doesn't exist,
I'm sure I could force you to believe otherwise (say, by
duct taping you to a chair and clubbing you about the head
and shoulders with the Book of Concord.)

And I'm quite sure that God does something similar to us.
Some of us sure get clubbed a lot, and Scripture says we
are to accept such clubbing as discipline from a loving
Father. Is this forcing? Ask Jonah and St. Paul.

OTOH, ask David.

Bart

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