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In article <081.20.08.05.785355000@srcbs.org>, basicallyblues says...
>
>
>
>>The problem is that you claim they *didn't* believe it. We've showed
>>you that they did believe in the Trinity. Your argument is that they
>>didn't have the *exact* wording/explication of Nicea.
>
>The writings of these "church fathers" shows they did not believe in
>the trinity you believe in today.

No, their writings show no such thing. It is only in poor translations -- half
understood -- that their writing _appear_ to show such a thing.

>WHAT "TRINITY" ARE YOU TALKIN ABOUT?
>Is Jesus a created being in your trinity or not? Very simple question.

Nothing is simple when arguing with such a dissembler as yourself.

>I wrote:
>Ignatius calls Almighty God "the only true God, the unbegotten and
>unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the
>only-begotten Son," showing the distinction between God and His Son.
>He speaks of "God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." And he
>declares: "There is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself
>by Jesus Christ His Son."
>
>******Ignatius shows that the SON WAS NOT ETERNAL AS A PERSON BUT WAS
>CREATED, for he has the Son saying: "The Lord [Almighty God] created
>Me, the beginning of His ways."*****

And this is the poor translation I mentioned above. For as I have _already_
pointed out to you, KTIZW should really be 'appoint', not 'create' in this
passage.

>
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--
---------------------------
Subudcat se sibi ut haereat Deo
quidquid boni habet, tribuat illi a quo factus est.
(St. Augustine, Ser. 96)

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>>God creates every thought, and the "creature" MUST
>>> act upon these thoughts CREATED BY GOD. The
>>> creature's every word and deed is completely DETERMINED
>>> by his thoughts, and hence every action of every creature
>>> is DETERMINED by God.
>>>
>
> But throughout you are applying only the "direct" mode of
> determination. How can this be illustrated in a common manner?

Predestination did not have the advantage of Chaos Theory. The
behavior of chaotic systems cannot be predicted by any mind, no
matter how powerful. Not even by the mind of God. I put it to you
that the human race is a chaotic system



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