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In article <086.48.17.05.901362000@srcbs.org>, Bob Felts says...
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>basicallyblues wrote:
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>> > Nothing to do with theology but scripture itself. Either you believe the
>> > Bible contradicts itself or you realize that Enoch being "taken" or
>> > "transferred" does not mean he didn't die.
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>> >The fallacy of the false dilemma. Those aren't the only two choices.
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>> They most certainly are chap. Either Enoch died or he did not.
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>Certainly. But those weren't the choices you presented, namely:
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>1) The Bible contradicts itself, or
>2) Enoch being "taken"... means he died [after untangling the double
>negative].
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>In fact, both of the choices you presented are wrong. The Bible does
>not contradict itself and Enoch did not die (cf. Heb 11:5)

So now both Bob and I have pointed out the same fallacy in that 'BasicallyBlues'
post. ANyone want to start a betting pool on how long it takes before he admits
he has been caught red-handed?;)

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>> >In the Greek, Jesus is saying that no one has ascended by their own
>> >direct action and power
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>> not according to how the Greek word "anabaino" is used throughout
>> scripture:
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>Really? Let's see...
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>> Luke 19:28
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>And when he had thus spoken, he went before, "ascending up" to
>Jerusalem.
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>Jesus, by His own power and direct action, walked up to Jerusalem.
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>> John 1:51
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>And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye
>shall see heaven open, and the angels of God "ascending" and descending
>upon the Son of man.
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>Are the angels using elevators or, like Jesus, are they travelling under
>their own power?

As I said before, I think you _are_ on to something here, but there are still a
few holes that have to be patched up here. For the same word, ANABAINW, is used
in the apocryphal Ascension of Isaiah. Don't let the fact that the work is
apocryphal distract from the essential point: it is written in the same
Hellenistic Greek.

Also, you have made what is most valuable in your argument somewhat obscured by
starting out talking about 'tense' when the distinction you _really_ are
interested in is active vs. passive voice.

But there is an interesting distionction based on tense that is even more
damaging to Blue's fallacious argument: it is the use of the PRESENT participle
for "to be", which actually reinforces the use of the perfect for 'ascended'. It
implies that He is _still_ in heaven, even while bodily He is on earth speaking
with Nicodemus!

Surely being in two places at once is a sign of His omnipresence, which is an
attribute of God alone.