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Matthew Johnson wrote:
> In article <114.28.21.05.812658000@srcbs.org>, lsenders@hotmail.com says...
>

>
>
>> That mistake is
>>to suppose that free will and divine sovereignty are antithetical.
>
>
> But with YOUR definition of 'soverignty', they most certainly ARE antithetical.
>

I think you hit the proverbial "nail on the head."

God being sovereign does not mean that man cannot do that which
God forbids, and which God does not will that he do.

It means that God PERMITS man to disobey Him. But only permits,
man does not and cannot do anything that God does not permit him to do.

The Reformed idea of Sovereignty that man when he sins is actually
doing the will of God is very wrong.

Gary

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Bart Goddard wrote:

>matthew_member@newsguy.com wrote:
>
>
>
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>>>The purpose of this scenerio is not as an allegory for God, (although
>>>there is some allegory here) but to show that "will" is not a
>>>well-defined thing, or at least it's not easy to nail down what
>>>someone's "will" is.
>>>
>>>
>>Of course, I have known this for a long time. In fact, it was I who
>>told you that Luther and Chemnitz never understood the definition of
>>'will' in the NT. For they denied what St. Maximus the Confessor knew
>>so well, that the very word 'will' (qelhma) implies that the _person_
>>doing the willing is both rational and free.
>>
>>
>
>You don't know what you think you know. Luther uses the
>term "free will", and says things like "they ascribe more
>to free will than its due." As I've said all along, it's
>this modern interpretation of "free will" that is the problem.
>You can be rational, and you can be "free", as long as
>you realize that "free (1500)" doesn't mean "free (2005)".
>
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>
>
>>>On one hand, I will that there be no snapping wrenches. On the
>>>other hand, I try to snap them, willing that the defective ones break
>>>here in my shop, rather than in the hand of my customers.
>>>
>>>
>>The analogy is worth something, but not that much; for the big
>>difference between your will and God's is, of course, that He is
>>omnipotent, you are not.
>>
>>
>
>No, the "of course" here is that, if you read my first quoted
>sentence about, this is not an analogy about God. It's an
>illustration of how "will" can differ and not be contradictory.
>The fact that you went ahead and tried to critic it as
>if it were an analogy about God is very telling.
>
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