Gary McNees wrote:

> "Bob Felts" wrote in message
> news:155.39.06.05.456586000@srcbs.org...
> >
> >
> > Matthew Johnson wrote:
> >
> > > In article <153.21.08.05.919325000@srcbs.org>, Bob Felts says...
> > > >
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > >But you have God giving free will to someone who He knows will misuse
> > > >it to cause misery, destruction, and death.
> > > >
> > > >So how do you justify this?
> > >
> > > Why are you asking him to _justify_ it, when _neither_ of you really
> > > believe that man can justify God?
> >
> > Because one of the frequent complaints of Calvinism is that its "god" is
> > really demonic because of the notion that He creates vessels of wrath
> > devoted to destruction.
> >
> > He needs to see that the "free-will granting god" likewise has a PR
> > problem.
> >
> > Therefore, the "no free will" position cannot be rejected simply because
> > it offends one's sensibilities -- because the "free will" position is no
> > better.
>
> Sorry to hear that you think that it is no better for God to permit you
> to reject Him than it is for God to not allow you to accept Him.
>
> I see an infinite difference and so do even most atheists.

Atheists are blind, so I don't see wny you think this is a point for
your side -- unless you like falling into a pit, perhaps.

>
> It is the difference between a god who pushes people into hell against
> their wills, verses one who does everything possible to keep everyone from
> going to hell by all means short of forcing them against their wills.
>

First, this is a bad analogy. Everyone who ends up in hell wills it.
Anyone with a basic undestanding of Lewis knows this. But we'll save
that for another day. Let's take your incorrect picture and
nevertheless examine it.

In the first case you have an omnipotent God pushing people in. Here,
God is a bully, a despot.

In the second case, you have a weak god who is unable to save. It's no
different from having a little girl at the bottom of the pool with a
parent standing by shouting, "c'mon, baby, get out! I told you not to
go near the edge. Just stand up, please. See the ladder? Just reach
out your hand. I'll grab you if you'll just touch the ladder. C'mon
baby, try... you can do it... Oh, dear... lost another one. How I
wish she had listened to me."

> God would save every man if He could. But He CAN'T FORCE
> people to love Him freely. This is an impossibility, like creating another
> God. God is uncreated, so it is impossible to create a God.

You can spin it any way you want, but your god is impotent and we are
his masters