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Gateway to information and services for older adults and their families in the state.

Minnesota Board on Aging

Gateway to information and services for older adults and their families in the state.

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Annual conference started by Robert Bly in 1984. Events include the telling of old stories, the gifts of poetry, making music together and opening hearts to grief.

Minnesota Men's Conference

Annual conference started by Robert Bly in 1984. Gatherings include the telling of old stories, the gifts of poetry, making music together and opening hearts to grief.

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Minnesota Toolkit for Giving

Information on philanthropy and charitable donations in Minnesota, for individuals or corporations.

In article <258BDD41-34DF-B6DC-46EB-A62FF292DB00@srcbs.org>, Bart Goddard
says...
>

[snip]

>> This is the quote from St. Paul, which you belittled:
>>
>> Ephesians 1:13
>
>Oh, so it wasn't "above" and so whatever I "belittled
>above" couldn't have been Eph. 1:13. If I belittle
>anything, it's your heresy, and not Scripture.

Of course, you would like the readers to believe this, but you remain
unconvincing.

>> In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard
>> the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom
>> also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy
>> Spirit of promise,
>>
>>> At least I can tell the difference between Scripture and
>>> the stuff I make up myself.
>>
>> No you can't. Address the above scripture!

>The main trouble you're having with the above is that
>you're not very good at reading Shakespearean English.

Good guess, but no.

>"after that" doesn't mean "and then" or "before then"
>and certainly not "because of".

Don't be so sure. It translates EF 'hWi in the Greek, which has a wide range of
possible meanings. It CAN mean 'because'. Then again, your beloved Luther did
not understand this expression either, insisting that EF 'hWi means "in whom" in
Rom 5. Even more important, don't assume that Gary is really assuming "after
that" in this passage really has a temporal meaning, "first this happened, then
that happened".

>Get a translation that's more like your own tongue,
>and see if the verses say the same thing to you.

Don't be too surprised if he decides it does. For even if you deny that EF 'hWi
can mean "after that" or "because" here, you cannot exclude a causal or temporal
relationship on those grounds alone.

>If that's not enough, just back up 2 verses and
>try to account for them.

>> Proofs of "free will," have been given again and again by
>> men such as Augustine and others. Bill, I think, posted the
>> argument in great detail.

Yes, he did.

>What Augusting meant by "free will" is quite a different
>thing than what you mean.

But not as different as what you mean. For I have noticed that WHENEVER you cite
Augustine's notion, you are relying on a very one-sided selection of the many
things Augustine said about free will. Even worse, you _systematically_ avoid
his most important work on free will, De Gratia & Libero Arbitrio.

>Erasmus also gave us an
>extensive "proof" of free will, but even he wasn't
>convinced by his own argument.

Not true. Erasmus admitted that he was a specialist in philology, NOT theology.
Nevertheless he certainly _was_ convinced by his own arg