Adventures in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan

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Fall Color tours

Travel Northern Michigan woodlands by rail and witness autumn splendor aboard the Grand Traverse Dinner Train

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Frank's Michigan Morels

Michigan Morels. Spring time hunting around Gaylord and northern Michigan. Message board, Tips, Updates and Weather conditions.

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Grand Traverse Dinner Train

Elegant gourmet rail dining excursions of Traverse City aboard this nostalgic dinner train. Relax and enjoy an event steeped in elegance and tradition

Grand Traverse Dinner Train

60-mile excursions of Northern Michigan countryside, while savoring a 5-course gourmet meal aboard this nostalgic dinner train. Relax and enjoy an event steeped in tradition and elegance.

Inspired By Nature

Specializing in fun and educational things to do outdoors among nature and wildlife.

Matthew Johnson wrote:

>You do not understand this verse. He is talking about the >_INCARNATE_ Christ
>here. As Incarnate, of course He is part of creation. But as God, He still
>remains other than Creation.

No Matthew. First of all, relying on the "incarnate" exegesis is all
too typical. The being that is "Christ" was "created" long before his
appearance on earth. Jesus of Nazareth was not "created" at birth via
Mary.

Col. 1:15, as you admit, places Christ as part of creation. Rev. 3:14
bolsters that fact. John 6:57 is another piece to the puzzle and Prov.
8:22-30 (when properly understood) closes the deal.

> Paul does not mean to assert that Christ
>created himself, and he of course did not create God; rather he is the agent
>of creating everything else.

>No. Paul never says this.

not in those exact words but he *does* say it when he says "through
Jesus" at 1 Cor. 8:6 or "by means of him" at Col. 1:16 and John says
the same at John 1:3. Bolstered by his being the "master worker" at
Prov. 8:30 and of course the famous "let us make man in our image" at
Gen. 1:26.

Jehovah is the Creator..he created Jesus first and everything else was
created through Jesus. THAT is what the Bible says. It is also
supported by logic, common sense and reasoning.

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gkmcnees@comcast.net wrote:

>> > Matthew, you have done a good job of answering Bart.
>> >
>> > There is a name for Bart's philosophical position here, and it is
>> > occasionalism.
>>
>> He can not have done a good job answering me, because I
>> haven't asserted anything. Among the many things you
>> don't know is my philosophical position.
>
> Very interesting Bart. Is this typical of you?
> You never assert anything?

It's typical that I prefer to point out contradictions in
others' stated doctrines, rather than post sermons about
my own. It's not that I never assert anything, but
that in this case, I haven't been asserting my theology.
You viciously attacked the Calvinists, some of whom
I count as friends. I'm defending them. I don't accept
their point of view, but your simplistic attack on them
misses the mark by a parsec.

My doctrine, which I'm happy to defend, is not the
topic of discussion on this thread.

> You seem to me
> to assert many many things, primarily that
> everyone who disagrees with you is wrong!

OK, buddy, find one place where I asserted that.


>> > How can one expect to come up with the truth when they