In article <173.53.11.05.311590000@srcbs.org>, lsenders@hotmail.com says...
>
>
>
>Gary McNees wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't agree. It was "free will" that the person was engaged
>> in talking on the phone, or not stopping for the red light.
>> What you are saying that a person after jumping off a cliff
>> no longer has the freedom to stop his fall. If this is what
>> you mean by "free will" then I agree. But the person used
>> his freedom to jump in the first place.
>>
>This only goes to show that you do not know what "free-will" involves.

No, that is not true. But I see you love to assume and assert this, since it
would make your life so much simpler if it were true.

>I have illustrated this repeatedly.

And illustrated it with bad and grossly misleading 'illustrations'.

> To "freely" choose either Ford or
>Chevy is not "free-will."

Sure, it is.

> Either choice has but a single goal -a
>selfish one.

Why are you so sure of this?

> Choosing to stop at that red light or choosing not to
>stop, is not a "free-will" choice.

Sure, it is.

> Again, both actions have but a
>single goal -to serve self. At one moment it will be self-serving to
>stop and obey the law. At another moment, it will be self-serving to
>run that red light. Either way, both choices only involve how self is
>served.

Why do you believe this?

>True free-will (a terrible term),

This is the only correct part of your post: it is a terrible term. Far more
precise is Augustine's "free choice OF the will".

> self-determines

But what DO you really mean by this? If you meant that the willer wills
according to AUTEJOUSIA, I could agree with you. But from past discussions, it
appears that t his is by no means what you mean.

> and has two goals to
>choose from;

No.

> one serving God, the other serving self. Man, without the
>regenerating ministry of the Spirit, cannot experience a true
>"free-will" choice for he only and ever is only self-oriented.

No.

> THIS is
>the scripture's description of man after the fall.

No. ONly if you systematically read out of context is this so.

> "None seeks after
>God."

And this is where you read out of context. The Psalm applies this phrase NOT to
all men, but to the Psalmist's enemies.

[snip]


--
---------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
quidquid boni habet, tribuat illi a quo factus est.
(St. Augustine, Ser. 96)

((( s.r.c.b-s is a moderated group. All posts are approved by a moderator. )))
((( Read http://srcbs.or