A clinically oriented program with an objective to helping people achieve optimal weight. Dr. Dennis Padla.

Detroit, Jackson, Livonia. Surgical Weight Loss. Provides education, surgery, follow up treatment. Free seminars. On-line surgical weight loss forum.

Primary and preventive care of obesity. Weight tables, diet and exercise tips.

Southfield. A Michigan based company with over 14 years experience. We have 24 clinics and have helped our patients lose tens of thousands of unwanted pounds.

Teaches members to loose weight, get fit and eat healthy. On line store, recipes and a meeting locator.

In article <139.59.11.05.907135000@srcbs.org>, Bart Goddard says...

>gkmcnees@comcast.net wrote:

>> I still do not agree. On the one hand some Calvinists state the
>> man is RESPONSIBLE for his actions, but on the other hand,
>> they also believe that God causes all his actions.

>This is not a logical contradiction. You're using an
>axiom which says "A being can responsible only if he has
>freedom." I don't agree that the axiom is a good one.

True. But if you did accept it, as Gary and many lurkers do, then it
IS a contradiction. Besides: we _know_ you don't accept it. What we
don't understand is why you think this is a good idea.

>I can't think of any reason why it ought to be true,

I can. It was outlined in great detail in the first three paragraphs of De
Gratia & Libero Arbitrio.

2.2 ... Neque enim nullum habebant peccatum, antequam Christus
venisset in carne ad eos. Item dicit Apostolus: "Revelatur ira Dei
de caelo in omnem impietatem et iniustitiam hominum eorum, qui
veritatem in iniquitate detinent: quia quod notum est Dei,
manifestum est in illis: Deus enim illis manifestavit. Invisibilia
enim eius, a creatura mundi, per ea quae facta sunt, intellecta
conspiciuntur; sempiterna quoque virtus eius ac divinitas, ut sint
inexcusabiles (Rom 1:18-20)" Quomodo dicit inexcusabiles, nisi de
illa excusatione qua solet dicere humana superbia: Si scissem,
fecissem; ideo non feci quia nescivi"? aut: "Si scirem, facerem;
ideo non facio, quia nescio"? Haec eis excusatio tollitur, quando
praeceptum datur, vel scientia non peccandi manifestatur.
(from http://www.augustinus.it/latino/grazia_libero_arbitrio/index.htm)

I have already translated parts of this for the NG before, and am too
lazy to do it again now. So I will just quote the relevant part and
let you find the translation;)

>and I can think of several examples of a person who doesn't have
>control but are still considered to be responsible.

In _what_ legal or ethical system? Perhaps only in one that is badly
in need of reform, such as the Texan system;)

>God can make a guilty, freedomless man if He wants to.

An axiom very pleasing to Calvinist's and those Lutherans who fell
under the dark spell of Luther's "On the Bondage of the Will". But an
irrelevant one, since God did NOT want to make a guilty freedomless
man. Such a 'man' could NOT have been called "created in the image and
likeness of God".

>> Another is that God is GOOD.
>
>That's not an internal contradiction, but rather something
>which conflicts with your own (external) definition of
>"good".

It is not "Gary's definition", it is the Bible's. Nor is it