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Bart Goddard wrote:
> gkmcnees@comcast.net wrote:
>
>
>>>What, in Scripture, says that Jonah's choice was "free"?
>>>Didn't his fear (stemming from lack of trust in God) and
>>>hence Satan make the choice for him?
>>
>>No! This is an oft repeated lie. Satan can influence
>>man. Jonah and Judas both CHOOSE to disobey God. They
>>both could have repented. Jonah did, Judas did not.
>
>
> And Scripture is clear that Judas' path was predetermined.

If you mean by "predetermined" that God knew that
Judas would freely choose to do what he did, then
I agree. God did NOT cause Judas to betray Jesus.
Bart, of all the people on this list I would think
that you would realize that free will with the power
of contrary choice is NOT contradictory to God's
sovereignty.

> He had no choice but to choose disobedience. In nobody's
> lexicon is there a definition of "free" that could be
> applied to Judas' choice.

Care to prove this with scripture? Again, I would think
that you would realize the contradiction of saying that
Judas was responsible for an act which his self did
not determine.

> If I, (as President, Cantor and Elder) of my congregation
> am leading a Voters Meeting (as I did last night) then
> I am bound by Robert's Rules to abstain from debating
> an issue. It's my job to make the meeting run smoothly
> and fairly. IF I decide to respond to everyone's comments
> and questions in such a way as to derogate the position
> I'm against and to edify the position I'm for, then the
> complaint against me that I used my influence to
> rig the vote would be valid. And the people would
> say that the vote was not free. I have so much influence
> in my congregation, that me just saying what I prefer
> would decide almost any vote.

With them, maybe, with most on this list, no.

> How much more influence does Satan have over us?

Well, I could refer you to James, as he speaks
directly to this, but I think you already know
this.


> An influenced choice is not free.

OK! Here we definitely disagree.
All our choices are influenced. They are influenced
by many things. But they are not DETERMINED by these
influences. The SELF determines the choice.

As I see the matter there are three possibilities as to
the cause of our choices:

1. They are undetermined = random = which is absurd for an rational being.

2. They are determined by another. (I think this is your position.)

4. They are SELF-determined. (This is MY position.)

[BUT and this is a big BUT: God controls all things including
all our free will cho