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Matthew Johnson wrote:

> In article , Bob Felts says...
>
> >Stephen M. Adams wrote:
>
> >[...]
>
>
>
> >> Once again, I challenge you to show me where I have said that one can
> >> attain righteousness without the gospel. Better yet, show me where I
> >> have said that one can attain righteosness without grace! Or that the
> >> righteousness is completely self-willed.
>
> >Is this righteousness partially self-willed?
>
> This is obviously a leading question, designed to _frame_
> Steve with the false accusation of "semi-pelagianism".

It's obviously a leading question designed to figure out what you guys
_really_ hold to be true. You know, for a question that has a simple
"yes" or "no" answer, you go to great lengths to avoid answering it.

>
> >[...]
>
> >BTW, Steve, part of the problem with these challenges is
> >that what you say, and what you imply by what you say, are
> >often at odds with one another (at least, in the estimation
> >of some who read your words). The same is true of what I
> >write. That's why we enter into these (often heated)
> >discussions -- to see whether:
>
> >1) we really understood what you said,
> >2) you really understood what you said,
> >3) we correctly connected the dots between what you said and what
> >Scripture says, and
> >4) you correctly connected the dots between what you said and what
> >Scripture says, and ...
>
> You _say_ you want to do this, but I cannot believe you.

I'll bite my tongue on this one.

> I would be surprised if Steve can believe you either. For your actions in
> this NG are not consistent with this claim. See below.

Ok, I'll wait.

>
> >Having read what you wrote in the quoted section above, I think there's a
> >problem connecting an implication of what you said with what I think
> >Scripture says. Hence my question, which is diagnostic in intent.
>
> You say 'diagnostic', but it sure looks like a leading question to me.
>

I visited the doctor yesterday. He asked me a lot of leading questions.
I'm glad he did.

> >As an example of how difficult this all is, in another thread I asked the
> >question, "So why do all men everywhere, without fail, choose not to
> >follow [the] Law?"
>
> >Matthew responded with:
>
> >> Ah, here is where you reveal another theological bias, or rather, a
> >> philosophical bias, which happens to _also_ be rooted in Scholasticism,
> >> namely, empiricism. You seem to believe that if all men fail, then they
> >> fail by nature. But this IS an empiricist assumption, not a Christian
> >> one.
>
> >Now this really surprised me.