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gkmcnees@comcast.net wrote:


> I still do not agree. On the one hand some Calvinists state the
> man is RESPONSIBLE for his actions, but on the other hand,
> they also believe that God causes all his actions.

This is not a logical contradiction. You're using an
axiom which says "A being can responsible only if he has
freedom." I don't agree that the axiom is a good one.
I can't think of any reason why it ought to be true, and
I can think of several examples of a person who doesn't
have control but are still considered to be responsible.

God can make a guilty, freedomless man if He wants to.

> Another is that God is GOOD.

That's not an internal contradiction, but rather something
which conflicts with your own (external) definition of
"good".



> For example, they claim on the one hand that God determines
> all things, both Good and Bad. But some admit that the bad
> He only "permits." (Calvin and other famous Calvinists deny
> even this.) But then they claim that what they call "free will,"
> is such that the man cannot choose otherwise. Hence cannot
> choose to not commit a particular sin.

And yet, you said almost the same thing. Something like
"God is the ultimate cause but not the immediate cause."


Bart

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Bob Felts wrote:
> Matthew Johnson wrote:
>
>
>>In article <115.51.06.05.622976000@srcbs.org>, Bob Felts says...
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>
>>>>Since you have not free will, I think that this is the
>>>>consequence.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Romans 7 explains this nicely.
>>
>>It does? Then why does the _interpretation_ of Rom 7 differ so sharply between
>>you, myself, and Gary?
>
>
> If you're going to play the numbers game then I could add a number of
> people to "my" side.
>
> But truth does not lie in numbers. The answer is that the reformers
> were right; you and Gary are wrong.


The "reformers?" Some of the "followers" of Luther and Calvin quickly
departed from some of their doctrines. Further, books have been written
to show by Calvin's own writings that Calvin was not a Calvinist, as
understood by Calvinists.

The "reformers" were wrong on many things. The ONE thing they, Luther
and Calvin, got right was salvation by Grace through faith, but their
followers have forsaken this, as is well demonstrated by the oft
repeated phrase, "faith comes AFTER regeneration/salv