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A not-for-profit power cooperative providing electricity to the Wabash valley of northeast Indiana.

Gary wrote:

> "Bart Goddard" wrote in message
> news:6142435E-F538-C0BB-5BFB-14FCFB862BB9@srcbs.org...
> > matthew_member@newsguy.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > >>Your spitting and hissing carries no weight for us, because 1. we
> > >>already knew that we daily sin much and are guilty of breaking all the
> > >>commandments and 2. we're confident in our forgiveness.
> > >
> > > And that confidence is the 'confidence' of those who say
> > > "Lord, Lord", yet not do what the Lord commanded.
> >
> > Note to Gary: Maybe you're enjoy the fact that Matthew seems to be on
> > your side. But note that he, unabashadly, espouses a "faith plus works"
> > formula for salvation. You should take it to heart that your chief ally
> > in the battle of "free will" preaches works righteousness.
>
> A second note, Bart.
>
> Without the will being self-determined, i.e., free will with
> the power of contrary choice, then sin is impossible as
> Augustine stated.
>

And why do you think Augustine is correct? That is, give us your
reasons for thinking that sin is impossible absent free will.


After all, Darth Vader was an evil man, yet he did exactly what Lucas
wanted him to do.


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Bob:

> (1) The Jewish and Christian version of Genesis agree, however the
> interpretations do not.

A distinction that has not been made clearly enough in this thread (or
I have missed it) is between a-priori (what does the text say) and
a-posteriori (what do we believe out of *other* reasons or supported
by *other* texts) understanding of the text. Of all I know, we can say
that we have *no* a-priori understanding: While the usage of the
apparent plural "elohim" with singular verbs is quite normal, its
usage with plural verbs is not, except when a plural is meant.

> (2) Christians believe in the Trinity, therefore believe that "us"
> refers to the Trinity. For them, a very valid belief.

And thus a *possible* but not a *cogent* interpretation.

> (3) Jews do not believe in the Trinity, therefore "us" would have to be
> G-d and his angels. For them, a very valid belief.

Interestingly, some traits in Judaism have a concept resembling the
Trinity but with 10 instead of 3. I wonder whether the plural in
Genesis has ever been proposed to mean these 10 sfirot.

> (4) No amount of discussion will change these core beliefs, so it is
> better to close the subject since neither side will convince the other
> that th