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In article <155.39.06.05.456586000@srcbs.org>, Bob Felts says...

>Matthew Johnson wrote:

>> In article <153.21.08.05.919325000@srcbs.org>, Bob Felts says...


>> >But you have God giving free will to someone who He knows will misuse it
>> >to cause misery, destruction, and death.
>> >
>> >So how do you justify this?
>>
>> Why are you asking him to _justify_ it, when _neither_ of you really believe
>> that man can justify God?
>
>Because one of the frequent complaints of Calvinism is that its "god" is
>really demonic because of the notion that He creates vessels of wrath
>devoted to destruction.

You have not answered the question.

>He needs to see that the "free-will granting god" likewise has a PR
>problem.

But this is still quite beside the point. We _know_ this, even though
we think "PR problem" is a pretty poor misnomer. But this "PR problem"
was _extensively_ treated by St. Augustine in his Enchiridion,
St. Basil in his "That God is not the Cause of Evil" and others. But
whenever I try to bring up their treatment, you whine and complain
because they do NOT share your disastrous Calvinist suppositions.

>Therefore, the "no free will" position cannot be rejected simply
>because it offends one's sensibilities -- because the "free will"
>position is no better.

But this too is quite beside the point. Neither Gary nor I are
proposing rejecting it merely "because it offends our
sensibilities". We reject it because it contradicts the nature of the
God who has revealed Himself to us through Scripture.

That is why I cite Mt 5:45-48 and Ez 18:23-32 as the evidence that God
could not possibly be the Calvinist God, who does what He hates. And
the convoluted reasonings Calvinists resort to in order to deny this
truth truly astound us.


--
---------------------------
Subducat se sibi ut haereat Deo
quidquid boni habet, tribuat illi a quo factus est.
(St. Augustine, Ser. 96)

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Gary McNees wrote:

> "Bob Felts" wrote in message
> news:154.10.10.05.159689000@srcbs.org...
> >
> >
> > Gary McNees wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > >
> > > > The free willer says that the "Calvinist" God is a monster because
> > > > He saves some and damns others according to His own sovereign
> > > > choices, independent of human will or effort. "It isn't fair" is
> > > > what the argument boils down to