Women's Ice Hockey in Newark, Delaware. New Players always welcomed.

In article <172.29.21.05.753518000@srcbs.org>, Mike Rhodes says...

>On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:52:57 +0000 (UTC), Matthew Johnson
> wrote:

>>In article <171.23.08.05.367524000@srcbs.org>, Mike Rhodes says...

>>>On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 00:34:36 +0000 (UTC), entropy
>>>wrote:

>>>>So saving grace is not a gift given freely to us by God?

>>>No, it is not.

>>There is a reason I did not simply come out and say that, Mike: I
>>wanted to be _sure_ nobody thought I was teaching the error you
>>indulge in below

>Just take the next step, Matthew. Simply come out and say it.

But why, when you yourself make it clear that I will be misunderstood
in exactly the way I warned against?

>>>Christ never taught grace.

>>But of _course_ He did!

>Proving negatives is difficult.

You are right to acknowledge this now. But then why did you make this
bold claim that He did not, if you knew this?

>But I can do a word search and see that Christ never spoke the word.

That you can. But this is far, far away from proving your claim.

>And having read the Bible, I am also aware that Christ did not
>preach the salvation by grace exclusively that Paul did.

Then you should also be aware that even the _meaning_ of "salvation by
grace exclusively" is highly contentious. So it is hardly reasonable
to say that He did not teach it.

> Forgiveness and grace are not the same thing.

Obviously. But forgiveness is obtained only by grace.

> Grace is thought as forgiveness,

What was this supposed to mean? You are obviously missing a word, but
depending on what that missing word really is, the meaning could ve
very different.

> but forgiveness was not taught as free grace.

>The apostles mentioned grace, but did not define it as Paul did.

Again, Paul did NOT define it.

>When John wrote Revelation he clearly mentioned grace in his
>introduction. But that word was not mentioned in his long quote of
>the messenger.

True. But John did not define it either.

>If there was a time for a clear comment on grace by Christ that one
>was it.

Why are you so sure of this?

> But what word did the messenger stress?

>>> And He never taught salvation as freely
>>>givenunder the definition of 'freely' as Paul defined it.

>>But wait a minute! Paul never _did_ 'define' it. And people do _often_, even
>>_usually_ misinterpret his words.

>Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of
>yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should
>boast."

>That stateme