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In article <143.11.17.05.392401000@srcbs.org>, Bob Felts says...
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>Matthew Johnson wrote:
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>> Gary, you had him at his weak point and you MISSED the chance! You missed
>> the chance to point out that the pots prepared for glory were prepared for
>> glory by God, but the posts prepared for destruction were prepared for it
>> BY THEMSELVES.
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>And you find this bit where?

I already answered this.

>> This fact of the Greek text is too embarassing for Bob to mention or admit.
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>Show me what you're talking about and if I'm wrong, or embarassed, I'll
>be more than happy to admit it.

I'll hold you to your word on that, Bob. For here is the Greek text:

...EK TOU AUTOU FHRAMATOS POIHSAI O MEN EIS TIMHN SKEUOS O DE EIS ATIMIAN

notice that this refers just to the making of the vessels, it does NOT say
what it is that makes each one for honor or dishonor. Nor is he talking about
what God does, he is still talking about the potter.

EI DE QELWN hO QEOS ENDEIJASQAI THN ORGHN KAI GNWRISAI TO DYNATON AYTOU

Now he has already switched from the simile of the potter to speaking about what
God actually does (this is shown by EI DE, which introduces a change of
subject). And continuing in this vein, he writes:

HNEGKEN EN POLLHI MAKROQYMIAI SKEUH ORGHS KATHRTISMENA EIS APWLEIAN

Did you see, Bob? He did not _make_ the SKEUH a SKEUH ORGHS. On the contrary: he
showed it patience (HNEGKEN). And notice that KATHRTISMENA is middle, which is
here used reflexively. It says they were prepared for destruction, but does NOT
say by whom. They prepared themselves for destruction.

Now if it were not for the Mt 25 example I gave you, you _might_ be justified in
claiming that KATHRTISMENA is passive, and that the unexpressed agent is God.
But because of Mt 25, you cannot, unless you also gut Mt 25 of its meaning, or
set up Paul to contradict Christ. Even you find the latter unthinkable, so no
doubt you will resort to the former.

Not only that, but you force Paul to be speaking very odd Greek, in which the
agent, despite the _overwhelming_ importance for the passage, is simply left
unexpressed. This sort of ellipsis is really incredible. You too, would find it
incredible, if you were not determined to twist the Apostle's words into making
him a supporter of Calvin's monstruous heresy.

KAI INA GNWRISHI TON PLOUTON THS DOJHS AUTOU EPI SKEUOI ELEOUS
hA PROHTOIMASEN EIS DOJAN (Rom 9:21-23

And this too makes the ellipis you propose really unbearable! For here he _does_
say who did the preparing. And it is God who prepared (PROHTOIMASEN) the vessels
for glory. But in order to