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zach wrote:
> gpatton@bayou.com wrote:
> > zach wrote:
> > > then why does 1 Tim 3:16 say he was "taken up?"
> > >
> > > 16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He
> appeared
> > > in a body,
> > > was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels,
> > > was preached among the nations, was believed on in the
world,
> > > was taken up in glory.
> >
> >
> > I don't quite see the problem. Please explain your question in such
a
> > way that even I can understand it.
> >
> > I understand from the RSV, that old manuscripts differ as to the
> > wording of Lk. 24:51 (about the risen Jesus leaving his disciples);
> > some old manuscripts say "he parted from them" and some add "and
was
> > carried up into heaven." Also Acts 1:9 uses the words "he was
lifted
> > up and a cloud took him out of their sight". Acts 1:11 says, "This
> > Jesus who was taken from you into heaven". So Luke and Paul both
> seem
> > to use words like "taken up".
> >
> > Am I missing something?
>
> I don't recall you were here for the threads the past few weeks on
> whether Jesus was the only one to "ascend" into heaven... vs. being
> "taken up" or "translated" like Elijah and Enoch, respectively.

I would go along with both "ascended" and "taken up" but I kind of
leave the details of how it was done up to God. I am sure that is
outside my experience and I would not understand how God did it even if
God told me. (I have not caught on to calculus yet.) I cannot even
understand how Elijah and Enoch were "translated"; whatever it means
for a human to be "translated". I am sure something important did
happen. I have no better terms than "translated" etc. I am just saying
that though it is important, I don't fully understand exactly how to
describe what God did and how he did it. Nor do I understand the
difference in being "taken up into heaven" and "translated".

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Stephen M. Adams wrote:

[...]

>
> "Not by faith alone."

Plus what, Stephen? Human effort?

>
> In other words, without works, there is no saving faith. It is NOT faith
> alone that saves. Repeating, James says:
>
> You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
>
> Trying to slough this off as a message to the "Jews" is a copout. The
> text is plain and simple. "Faith alone" does not, nay, can not, save.

Neither does faith + human effort.

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