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"Bob Felts" wrote in message
news:100.24.19.05.716476000@srcbs.org...

>> and in my opinion so was Jesus created before Gen.1:1 (Rev. 3:14)
>
> When I responded earlier, I mentioned that I didn't see how this verse
> supported this conclusion. But I was looking at it in the NIV and have
> now read it in several other versions as well as the Greek. It
> absolutely does not mean "the first created thing". It does mean "that
> which started God's creation."

Please give another Scriptural example where 'the beginning of' something
was not also part of that something. From the LXX or NT.

I have searched but not found any examples within the scriptures where
"arche" can be shown to clearly mean "cause" or "source".

When John and the other Bible writers wanted to say "ruler" they used the
word "archon". When they wanted to say "source", "cause" or "author" they
used "rhiza" or "aitios". It cannot be shown that they ever used "arche" in
the sense of "author" or "source".


> This is verified two different ways.
>
> First, John 1:3 says, "All things were made through him and without him
> not one thing came into being."

The word that some translate 'made' here is the Greek word 'ginomai'.

Ginomai occurs upwards of seven hundred times in the New Testament, but
never in the sense of create, yet in most versions at John chapter 1, it is
translated "made." Ginomai appears fifty three times in John, and signifies
"to be, to come, to become, to come to pass; also, to be done or
transacted."

Egeneto (a form of the word 'ginomai') NEVER carries a creation meaning and
is never translated such outside the four times rendered such in the first
chapter of John (John 1:3,4, & 10) where it is translated "made".

The NAB says in its footnote,

"What came to be". While the oldest manuscripts have no punctuation here,
the corrector of Bodmer P75, some mss, and the ANF take this phrase with
what follows, as staircase parallelism. Connection with verse 3 reflects 4th
century anti-Arianism."

Has this verse been corrupted to quell a certain doctrine (Arianism) as the
NAB claims?

The Anchor Bible has this reading at vs 4: "That which had come to be in him
was life, and this life was the light of men". Going along with the NAB, is
the 20th Century NT, NRSV, NJB, JB, NEB, BBE, HCSB ftn., RSV ftn.,Weymouth
ftn, ASV ftn, and the Translator's New Testament.

It does not seem that John 1:3 redefines the phrase "the beginning of" as
used previously in the Revelation to mean 'first in rank, but NOT in the
group'.

> If Jesus were created, then the statement "all things were made through
> him" would be